Including a particular amphibian that plays a very big part in this story. JAD: When rats have more of this protein, they will act more motherly. Suddenly you're marked. [foreign language]. You have to look at one cage, say, are they licking? ], Sterilized? ROBERT: But the story he told us begins around 25 years ago. Who are you? Because he couldn't hold formula down. JAD: Lamarck said, You wanna know how a giraffe got its long neck?, JAD: One day this giraffe, mother giraffe, lets say, was looking up in the tree and saw some fruit, and had to stretch he neck, and stretch again. Were there any consequences? Just a little. Radiolab - Transcripts Subscribe 187 episodes Radiolab is on a curiosity bender. Have you ever had someone call or write you and say that they regret their decision? And youre saying that part of the DNA is covered up? FRANCES CHAMPAGNE: You have to look at one cage, say, are they licking? It's such a surprising result. DESTINY HARRIS: Our staff includes Alan Horn, Soren Wheeler, Pat Walters DESTINY HARRIS: With help from Matt Kielty, Chris [unintelligible 01:04:17], PAT'S DAD: And Kenny [unintelligible 01:04:18], PAT: Special thanks to Martin [unintelligible 01:04:21]. Support Radiolab by becoming a member of The Lab today. Is that what you're saying? Listen Jan 20, 2023 So heres the backstory. DESTINY HARRIS: And that could have very easily have been one of us. JAD: I know! JAD: Because, you know, that Ive got these two kids, right? That's the stuff that makes you you. We need to oblige the constraints of WNYC copyright arrangements and apologise for any inconveniences caused. As to diabetes, it was a four-fold risk. More of this particular protein. CARL ZIMMER: She is nine. Putting this into context, you know, you have a rat mom and they have about 16 to 20 babies. Although, you know, sometimes that your grandfather's suffering helps you. PAT: She just knew, "This is my daughter.". ROBERT: Or how much humidity it preferred. PAT: For me, this whole story really shifted PAT: When I started spending some time with Destiny, Barbara's 22-year-old daughter. In any case, what they saw at the end of all this counting wasWell, first of all, what they saw was this pattern that rat pups who got licked a lot as babies, when they grew up, they licked their babies a lot and the rat pups who didn't get licked a lot, when they grew up, they didn't lick their babies. And since Kammerer kept the heat up, toads basically had to stay there, in this watery place that they had not evolved for. You've got these toads who hate water. JAD: Well, if a mother a rat mother licking her baby can have such a profound effect, basically change the expression of the genes in the baby, well that's hopeful. It says, "Race of Supermen." He actually named his daughter Lacerta, which is a genus of lizard. ROBERT: And they didn't have these on land? CARL ZIMMER: At this really marvelous place called the Vivarium. You can imagine these toads are like, "Dammit, fine. ROBERT: And this idea won him a lot of fans, including, not surprisingly, the Soviets. And she says oftentimes the women who want help have a really hard time finding it. And The other day someone was whistling and I was like, "Stop it", and it just hit me, I was like, "Oh God, I was him", it's never appeared until now. PEJK MALINOVSKI: Here we have how much they harvested. I mean that's a different kind of odds, but its Our staff includes Alan Horn, Soren Wheeler, Pat Walters With help from Matt Kielty, Chris [unintelligible 01:04:17], Special thanks to Martin [unintelligible 01:04:21], Copyright 2022 New York Public Radio. This lady right here is still taking drugs and she could be pregnant again next month.]. Birth mother's name was actually the same as me, so, Barbara. LYNN PALTROW: The women who I've worked with, who've had a history of drug problems, aren't like the examples that she gives. If you were a boy in verkalix between the ages of 9 and 12 years old, that's the window, 9 to 12, you're a boy, and then we have one of those terribly rough winters, and you're eating much less than normal. And Barbara and Destiny walked me out to my car. Inheritance Radiolab Podcast Genetics Homework Assignment Homework assignment on the Radiolab podcast 'Inheritance', developed for a college-level cell biology class. And eventually, over the millenia, what youd get, is a creature with a very long neck. [ARCHIVAL Clip, News: Harris says her program, children requiring a caring community, or CRACK], [ARCHIVAL Clip, News: Can prevent thousands of unwanted births to drug-addicted women. JAD: Or very many of them right at all, but, you know, his basic idea seems to be true. If Barbara had gotten to Destiny's birth mom, Destiny, Kalia, this moment, none of it would exist. Peanut butter, there we go. Is it a big town? Because we had already had to upgrade from a car to a van, from a condo to a home. The results are obvious to you. DESTINY HARRIS: To her, I matter. I want her to be able to look back on her life one day, maybe when she's getting interviewed, I don't know, and be able to say that, "Yes, my mom was there for me 100% without a doubt." With NPR's Rough Translation. [chuckles]. ], [ARCHIVAL Clip, Daytime Talkshow: I'd like everybody to meet, please, Barbara Harris. OLOV BYGREN: It was very interesting discovery. That, in a sort of ass backward way was Michael's question. MICHAEL MEANEY: That's it. OLOV BYGREN: Something happens on the molecular level. They won't grow much on the outside, but on the inside That is the time where the sperms are developing. And um BARBARA HARRIS: I had asked for a newborn, so when the social worker called me, she said, "I have this cute little baby girl for you but she's eight months old. ROBERT: But the results are very clear. Who gave Destiny her first checkup told Barbara That she was delayed and she was always going to be delayed because of her prenatal neglect. Apparently, those grandkids SAM KEAN: Were less prone to diabetes. And it just so happens this town is a perfect place to dig. Don't you see, somehow the mother's tongue is getting all the way down in there and going [mumbles] and messing with the baby's DNA. CARL ZIMMER: Well, there was an expert on reptiles named G. Kingsley Noble. Then she goes, "Oh wait, I didn't give birth to you. PAT: The question that was stuck in my head right then was, "If you could choose between being born knowing that your life might end up like that and not like it is now, or not been born at all, what would you have done?". PEJK MALINOVSKI: This is the verkalix church parish record. He was miserable to look at. As he's doing his rounds, he stops by the midwife toad terrarium, he looks down at that little male toad with grapes stuck to his legs and he wonders, "How adaptable is that little guy?" MICHAEL MEANEY: So the great rat nightmare comes true where the females become their mothers. So now, the genes can make the proteins that make the rats a good mom? BARBARA HARRIS: That's how we ended up with four of them. BARBARA HARRIS: After I've gotten to know so many of the women. BARBARA HARRIS: This is 750 and this is 200. MICHAEL MEANEY: I was an undergraduate student. LULU: So far. I had asked for a newborn, so when the social worker called me, she said, "I have this cute little baby girl for you but she's eight months old. You can do this. That you're just renaming it. And I've got say, I'm feeling pretty good about this show so far. I just didnt think. I want her to be able to look back on her life one day, maybe when she's getting interviewed, I don't know, and be able to say that, "Yes, my mom was there for me 100% without a doubt." SAM KEAN: I should add too. He thought that because theyre swinging hammers all day, they got big bulky muscles, and then theyd pass the muscles to their children. DESTINY HARRIS: Honestly, I think it never seemed like she was anything but my real mom, if that makes sense. So for Isaiah, being born was like just being cut off. Or is it? Darwin's theory would have said, you know, 90% of the toads are going to die. Oh you said it so much more diplomatically. To her, I matter. "I want to thank you for your support and kindness as always." We are working to provide transcripts for as much of our programming as we can over time. I like you, I get the sense that there's a lot of warmth in you. You know, when smart people say, you know, "There's no such thing as nature and nurture it's only interaction of the two," You're like, "What the hell does that mean?" I didn't see them as people. JAD: And I know fate is gonna give them a couple random mutations in those genes. To learn more about higher level giving opportunities please contact the Development Office at giving@nypublicradio.org or (646) 829-4130. Anyways, God bless you. You know, like if you're abused as a kid, you were more likely to abuse your kid, but still, you got to wonder. [WILL: Hi, this is Will, calling from Northumberland, England. Yes, no, okay, move on to the next cage, yes, no? CARL ZIMMER: Well, it was a zoo where there was all sorts of experiments going on. Sincerely, Jennifer.". She was totally an oops kid. Oh, that's a lot of potatoes. I'm trying to remember. Yeah, like you can help them overcome you. Its just That's just how I've always looked at it. So that's fun. And they had more. The show is known for innovative sound design, smashing information into music. This is spooky because it's like JAD: It means what if grandpa has a bad day? Take a look, explore and subscribe! PAT: Even though Destiny's mom was doing all sorts of drugs during her pregnancy and the doctors told Barbara that Destiny was going to be mentally and physically delayed DESTINY HARRIS: Not feeling the way I'm supposed to feel. [laughs] We now know that thats not the case. He thought it worked with humans, too. They all go down to the DNA, surround that methyl and just, pow! I wont say too much more except it includes one of my favorite kind of scientific parables that like Ive ever heard. JAD: So, in the end, where do you come down on this? But this stuff you're telling me about Sweden feels very grim in a certain way. I mean, were not gonna do that ourselves. Well, yep, that is so true. JAD: Visited Kammerer's lab when Kammerer wasn't there. Most toads, he says, love to stay in the water. They decided to explore this question, They thought, "Let's just see if we can figure out how it is the rat mothers pass down their parenting skills?". PAT: And at a certain point, I noticed over my shoulder Barbara's crouched down and she's got her phone out and she's taking a picture of this just perfect little scene. So that's fun. I mean, yes, I might get a great family, but I might not. Barbara started finding herself on panels with women who'd use drugs during their pregnancies. Are you nine? Okay, so lets get going and stick with your boy, Lamarck, just for a sec. SAM KEAN: Except he had one. Everybody we talked to seems to think there's something really interesting going on here. If you're a starving boy between 9 to 12 years old, now it doesn't matter a whole lot what happens to you after this, your grandchildren will have one-quarter the risk of heart disease. You know, they say it only takes one time. I ended up finding myself really conflicted about it. According to Frances, it's not just sitting up there perfectly preserved, it's in the middle of the cell, it's crowded. Your boys will first grow taller and taller for the next few years, and when they get to be about 9, 10 years old, they're going to stop growing just for a few years. OLOV BYGREN: Methylations, phosphorylation, and so on. Also, thanks to Carl Zimmer whose latest is Evolution: Making Sense of Life. And so, her name is Kalia. Nice, cool water. It's a guided audio tour through cities where Radiolab Ken Burns and others. She should be with me. LULU: In a very real way, weve been thinking a lot about inheritance. How was this woman allowed", BARBARA HARRIS: "To walk into the hospital and drop off a damaged baby and just walk away with no consequences?". PEJK MALINOVSKI: And we have a lot more grain here. She's 22 now and she's never even met her birth mom. If the genes are the bottom floor, then this layer on top is sometimes called the epigenome and that thing can change based on your experiences. Methylations, phosphorylation, and so on. That the licking is changing the baby's DNA? The women who I've worked with, who've had a history of drug problems, aren't like the examples that she gives. ], [ARCHIVAL CLIP, BARBARA HARRIS: That's their choice, but the babies don't have a choice.]. FRANCES CHAMPAGNE: Putting this into context, you know, you have a rat mom and they have about 16 to 20 babies. What a name, you've got to like this guy. JAD: Not only that. JAD: Don't you see, somehow the mother's tongue is getting all the way down in there and going [mumbles] and messing with the baby's DNA. CARL ZIMMER: And in1923, he actually comes to England. And Destiny was in the other room, sleeping or something, I'm not sure. It happens. BARBARA HARRIS: I already knew that if I ever got a little girl, I was going to name her Destiny. JAD: Because here's the thing, the churches up in verkalix kept incredibly detailed records. So he actually went to Vienna. When they got another call from a social worker saying that same mother, Destiny's birth mother, had given birth to another child. As a parent, you are a tiny blip in a very, very, long story. Like, "How did this happen? The event that really sets this story in motion, the set of events, happened a few months after Barbara had brought Destiny home. Copyright 2022 New York Public Radio. Covid has disrupted the most basic routines of our days and nights. We spay them. Just sing. She's 20 months old. CARL ZIMMER: Enhancing public understanding of science and technology CHARLOTTE ZIMMER: in the modern world. JAD: So this whole debate, two totally different ways of seeing life. I do mean that. I think the Swedish data are really, really strong, and very reliable. JAD: [laughs] Youre just just judo, that's all this is. Radiolab: From Tree to Shining Tree LISTEN Three guests: Suzanne Simard, a professor of forest ecology and teacher at the University of British Columbia, Jennifer Frazer, a science writer that has a blog called The Artful Amoeba, and Roy Halling, a mycologist. Listen Feb 10, 2023 Bliss When did you last shout from happiness? BARBARA HARRIS: I mean, I'm married to a Black man. SAM KEAN: They wanted to see basically the effects of starvation on multiple generations. Maybe more. PAT: I asked Barbara about some of the things that she'd said because, to be totally honest, they kind of turn my stomach. That tongue is doing something to the DNA. FRANCES CHAMPAGNE: Why? SAM KEAN: Well, he thought it might have been an assistant trying to frame him because he was Jewish. I mean, the idea that they could be constrained by their DNA, that maybe one of us gave them a bit of DNA thats gonna hold them back? This great. Cause we were talking to science writer, Carl Zimmer, and he told us that back in the early 1900s, this tension between Lamarck and Darwin got extra tense. JAD: Yes. Just to be sure, we asked Frances Champagne what she thinks of this data. A lot of times that's not the case. JAD: Well think about it, this is nature and nurture slamming into each other. Destiny says before she was born, her mom had four other girls. Kick off certain hormonal systems. a rat mother licking her baby can have such a profound effect, basically change the expression of the genes in the baby, well that's hopeful. To fellow named Jean-Baptiste Pierre Antoine de Monet, chevalier de Lamarck. Big questions are. Maybe like those methyl things we were telling you about with the rats. So he actually went to Vienna. On the one hand, she says, immediately, cheques started arriving. I just got custody of my eight-year-old son. And so, they bring MICHAEL MEANEY: A lot of friends to the party. JAD: The sneaky idea here is that the blacksmiths, the giraffes, they made it happen. I don't think that puts me in the same category as Hitler. ], [ARCHIVAL Clip, News: To any drug-addicted woman who will agree to have no more babies. JAD: And I know I cant change those genes. Meet Jeremiah! This is what's called the slow growth period. Enhancing public understanding of science and technology Yeah, we're exploring questions of lwhat can you pass down to your kids and their kids? Last I heard she was living on the streets in LA. Who are they? But she says, you can tell right away, just by looking, that some rat moms don't lick their kids a lot. I'm going to graduate with honors and one day I'm going to be able to tell her, "Look, I did this. Stretching got into the baby. Baby, be careful. Were told. ], You get them $200 each, which they can spend on crack. She's 22 now and she's never even met her birth mom. There were four girls and Barbara and Destiny told me that a few years ago they found three of them and they all either were in college or had finished college. We talked to her for a little while and PAT: At a certain point the social worker pulls out a stack of papers. And at first, it didn't go so well because, you know, if you're a land toad and you're trying to have sex in the water, it's kind of hard. He thought that because theyre swinging hammers all day, they got big bulky muscles, and then theyd pass the muscles to their children. [ARCHIVAL CLIP, Jad Abumrad: Do you see the owl?]. MICHAEL MEANEY: Yes. I mean, youre just youre saying a lot of things that are really impressive. Thats like, I mean, that seems like a thing that would be frightening. Visit our website. Not only that. Go to him. OLOV BYGREN: Yes, we are really data-rich. I wont say too much more except it includes one of my favorite kind of scientific parables that like Ive ever heard. CARL ZIMMER: He was born in 1880 in Vienna, Jewish family. Destiny says one day, she and her mom were in the car, and her mom said She said, "I don't know, you know, maybe they'll grow bigger? BARBARA HARRIS: Yes, she has the same name as me. That's how we ended up with four of them. Knock it right off the DNA. Can you say oh my goodness? She said, "Thank you so much for the gift, I bought my son an excavator truck, remote control and some summer outfits." What happens when moms lick their pups is that the pup beccomes aroused. He had one remaining midwife toad. You got your good parents and your bad parents. Which, when you think about it, it has a very Lamarckian flavor. We all know this, that there are cycles of abuse or whatever. And Destiny says she doesn't really care DESTINY HARRIS: I got these genes from somewhere, but I kind of feel like she was a surrogate, like she carried me for my real mom. : because, you know, they bring Michael MEANEY: a of... 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Oftentimes the women who want help have a rat mom and they have about 16 to 20.. Is 750 and this is 750 and this idea won him a lot of friends to the party,,... Of the women Radiolab - Transcripts Subscribe 187 episodes Radiolab is on a bender... Were telling you about with the rats very real way, weve been a. Show is known for innovative sound design, smashing information into music it.. 'S all this is nature and nurture slamming into each other n't that...
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